MSNBC Hardball Transcript

MSNBC Hardball Transcript
November 3, 2003 Monday

HEADLINE: HARDBALL for November 3, 2003

BYLINE: Chris Matthews

GUESTS: Richard Gephardt

HIGHLIGHT:
Interview with Richard Gephardt.

BODY:
ANNOUNCER: Live, from the John F. Kennedy Institute of Politics at Harvard University, HARDBALL'S "Battle for the White House."

Tonight, our series of interviews with the Democratic candidates for president continues. Here's Chris Matthews.

CHRIS MATTHEWS, HOST: For the next hour, he served nearly 30 years in the U.S. Congress. Now he's one of the frontrunners for the Democratic presidential nomination. My guest tonight, Congressman Dick Gephardt. Let's play HARDBALL.

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

MATTHEWS: Impressive, huh? Harvard?

REP. RICHARD GEPHARDT (D-MO), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: What are you doing here?

(LAUGHTER)

MATTHEWS: I invited you.

GEPHARDT: Neither of us could have gotten in.

MATTHEWS: OK. Let's talk about—let's prove ourselves tonight in this combat (ph) of ideas.

Experts, if there are such things, believe that you and Howard Dean are, in fact, the two frontrunners for the Democratic presidential nomination right now. What's the fight between you and two—if—is it the war? What separates you from Dean?

GEPHARDT: I think I have more experience at the highest levels of government. I think I've got bold, big but realistic ideas that will solve the major problems we have.

But we have disagreements on some big issues. And I like Howard. He's a good man. I've worked with him. But we just disagree on Medicare.

What was that?

(LAUGHTER)

GEPHARDT: They're throwing airplanes at us.

MATTHEWS: It's a paper ballot.

GEPHARDT: We disagree on Medicare. He said it's the worst program that we ever produce. He said it's the worst thing that ever happened. I just don't believe that. I think it's the best thing we ever did.

And we disagree on guns. When I was trying to get the Brady bill and the assault weapon ban through the House, he was answering questionnaires of the NRA saying he wasn't for those things.

And we disagree on trade. I think we got to have a tough trade policy.

All the candidates have come to my position now. I'm glad they are. But when it counted, when NAFTA was up...

MATTHEWS: All right.

GEPHARDT: ...when China was up, I was the one fighting those treaties, because they didn't have standards coming up in these other countries.

MATTHEWS: Why didn't you mention the war?

GEPHARDT: We—we disagree on the war. I decided that this was the right thing to do. I decided it not because I listened to George Bush, but because I was listening to the CIA. I went out to the CIA three times. I talked to their top people. I talked to the top people at—from the Clinton administration. And they said, Yes, Saddam Hussein probably has weapons or he has components of weapons and they ability to quickly make weapons. So I worried about that.

My job is to keep you safe. And I'm going to do anything I can to do that.

MATTHEWS: Are you content now with the facts you got?

GEPHARDT: We haven't found the weapons, that's for sure.

MATTHEWS: We haven't found the nuclear weapons program yet, have we?

GEPHARDT: Well, but remember in 1991, when we got in there, he was about a step away from a nuclear device. He had a very active nuclear program.

MATTHEWS: What about when we went in there this year? Did he have a nuclear program (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?

GEPHARDT: They have not found it. They've found...

MATTHEWS: Does that bother you? That we went in there to prevent a nuclear war—from him dropping a mushroom bomb on us and he doesn't have seem to have had any ability to produce one?

GEPHARDT: We need a blue ribbon commission to look at all of the intelligence. But I sat in a room with George Tenet, and I said, George, I have to vote on this. You don't have to vote. I have to vote. I have to answer for my vote. And I want to know if we're worried that he has and can quickly produce weapons of mass destruction.

What are we worried about? We're worried about an A-bomb in a Ryder truck in Washington, in St. Louis, in L.A. It can't happen. We have to prevent it from happening. It cannot happen.

MATTHEWS: How do we prevent that by going to Iraq?

GEPHARDT: Because the...

MATTHEWS: Because they didn't have one.

GEPHARDT: Well, the worry was that he had an active program or he could quickly get an active program.

MATTHEWS: But the latest reporting is he had no such active program.

GEPHARDT: I understand.

MATTHEWS: Well, then why did we go to war? Were we wrong or not?

GEPHARDT: You've got to rely on...

MATTHEWS: Well, did we get the right intelligence on the nuclear issue?

GEPHARDT: We're going it find out. We're, first of all...

MATTHEWS: If we find out he didn't have a nuclear program, will you say that we shouldn't have gone to war?

GEPHARDT: I would not have voted to go to war if we knew at the time that he did not have any of these programs. Well, we didn't know that.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Are you still confident of the intelligence you got?

GEPHARDT: We're going to find out.

MATTHEWS: But you're not confident.

GEPHARDT: We need to find out.

MATTHEWS: You want to find out.

GEPHARDT: Well, of course I—you never know for sure. That's why it's intelligence. You never know whether it's right or not.

MATTHEWS: yes.

(LAUGHTER)

GEPHARDT: Look, you know, we're all human beings. I mean, the CIA is not all seeing and all knowing, and obviously they have failings. We need to correct for those failings. You know, I gave a...

MATTHEWS: How do correct for a war once you go to war? How do you not go to war once you've gone to war?

GEPHARDT: Well, we're there. We've got to see this thing through.

MATTHEWS: What would you do if you were president right now? We only have a little time here. It's so tough. But I don't want to go over the past. I want to go over the future. If you were president of the United States, commander in chief, right now, November 3, 2003, how would you lead this country differently right now in Iraq?

MATTHEWS: I would go to the U.N.

I told George Bush over a year and a half ago if we believe that this was necessary to do, he had to go to the U.N. He had to start the inspections again. He had to lead these other countries through this so we had the best chance we could have of getting the help that we need.

Now, he didn't get it done. Incredibly, it's five months after he landed on the aircraft carrier in his flight suit, and we still don't have the help that we should have gotten a year and a half ago. And it is inexplainable to me that he does not get the help that this country needs.

I have tried to help this president because I think that's my responsibility—to keep our people safe. He is hard to help. he does not—he does not work well with others.

(APPLAUSE])

GEPHARDT: Let me just (UNINTELLIGIBLE). He doesn't work well with people. He doesn't—he doesn't go to people and listen to people and hear them out. We have to respect these countries.

France is our friend. Germany is our friend. Russia is our friend. And you got to go work with people and their population to get this done. I would have gone to Berlin and talked to the people of Germany. I would have gone to Paris. I would have gone to Moscow. I would have talked to the people in those countries and told them our worries and our concerns and gotten their help.

We need their help now, and he needs to go to the U.N. now.

MATTHEWS: What would you have said to all those people that the president didn't say?

GEPHARDT: He didn't go to the people. He didn't—he didn't listen. He went to the U.N. when he finally went and said, We're going to do this with or without you. That's no way to get somebody to help you. This is common respect that you have to give to people.

MATTHEWS: So one of the things you would do now if you were to become president fairly soon is to go to the U.N. and ask are for the help of other countries still?

GEPHARDT: Absolutely. We need their help.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: I'm sorry.

GEPHARDT: This is going to be a long deal.

MATTHEWS: Let me ask you now—the big issue in the papers the couple days is about what we should be saying to the Iraqi people, who are now occupying their country. What message, if you were to go on Iraqi television now with an Arabic interpreter—what would you say to the Iraqi people who are all watching you on television right now about us being there? What would be your message?

GEPHARDT: We're there for the purpose of helping you achieve a democracy.

The four freedoms that Roosevelt talked about 60 years ago apply to the people of Iraq just like they apply to everybody in the world. Everybody wants freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom from want, freedom from fear. And the Iraqi people want that. They may decide on a different form of democracy than we particularly have or somebody else has. But they deserve the four freedoms. These are universal rights.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Would you promise them right up front we're going to leave here in a couple years?

GEPHARDT: I would say we're going to leave when we—the first chance we have to get out of here and let you run your own country.

MATTHEWS: On a scale of one to 10, how would you judge the success of the Iraqi occupation by the coalition forces? One to 10.

GEPHARDT: It's somewhere between one and five. It's not doing well right now.

MATTHEWS: Who do you blame?

GEPHARDT: I blame the president for not getting the help that we need.

Let me go one step further. Think of the difference it would be in Iraq today if people in Iraq were seeing a truly international force and not just Americans and a few Brits. It would make an enormous difference if they saw the whole world was committed to giving them the four freedoms that other people have enjoyed. It would make an enormous difference.

MATTHEWS: First question. Upstairs.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Congressman. Given recent reports that the al Qaeda are now heavily entrenched in Iraq and causing terrorists actions, don't you think your supported for the war has now caused the Middle East to become more volatile and open to terrorism, not less?

GEPHARDT: I don't—I don't buy that. I think we've got to fight against the symptoms of terrorism. That's why we're in Afghanistan. That's why we're in Iraq.

If people are committed to performing terrorism, to doing violence here and across the world, you better get to them first. It's called self-defense. And that's what we're trying to do.

But beyond that, we've got to deal with the other causes of terrorism, the root causes. And one of the things that's frustrated me about this president is he just deals with the symptoms. And I'm for doing that. But we got to deal with the root causes.

What's he doing in North Korea today to stop them from building a bomb? That's a disaster that he created. Clinton had it in a good place. Now he has turned it into a mess because of his incompetence in dealing with it.

We got problems in the middle east. We're not settling Middle East peace. Clinton had them at the top of the mountain. Then he comes in and says it's not our problem.

Excuse me. We've been working on this for 50 years. We're never going to achieve this without American leadership.

And finally, is he even talking to us about the Saudis, about the support that they have given for terrorism, the support they've given for the education of terrorism? Not a word. No long-term energy plan for America to end our dependence on Middle Eastern oil. Nothing on let's confront the Saudis and their bad behavior.

MATTHEWS: Next question.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Changing the subject somewhat, you called for an international minimum wage to be implemented through the World Trade Organization. My question is, what specific measures do you expect the WTO to take in order to implement that minimum wage in countries where it doesn't currently exist?

GEPHARDT: Well, I'm going to go to the WTO, and I'm going to suggest that the WTO ask all member countries to begin to institute a minimum wage in their country. We've got to stop the race to the bottom, and we've got to use the trading relationship—people's desire to be in the WTO—to get them to begin to perform minimal standards on labor and environment and human rights in every country in the world. And I believe if we get the WTO to do it—and I think I can—that will start standards coming up all around the world. That's what we need to do.

MATTHEWS: Let me ask you about the war, just to finish up that conversation. Do you think our occupation of Iraq right now, short-term, or whatever it turns out to be, has increased or decreased Arab hostility towards us in the world?

GEPHARDT: I think if we get this done well...

MATTHEWS: Right now. Do you think they like us more or less right now?

GEPHARDT: Right now it's probably made it probably somewhat worse, but I do think a message has been sent to some extent to other countries in the region that Arabs deserve the four freedoms just like everybody else.

MATTHEWS: By force?

GEPHARDT: There were a lot of people in Iraq that were sick of Saddam Hussein and wanted to be freed of his barbaric treatment of his own people.

MATTHEWS: Did you foresee the resistance that we're getting there?

GEPHARDT: I thought this could be difficult. I thought—I understood a lot about Iraq. I have read about Iraq. I knew the differences between the people, the Sunni, and the Shia, and the Kurds. And I knew these were old difficulties that went way back in time, and that's why I told the president four times in meetings in the White House that we needed help, this is going to be difficult. I even said to him, you're not going to need help going in, you're going to need help coming out.

MATTHEWS: What's he say? You said he doesn't listen. What does he actually do in the room when you are lucky to get in there?

GEPHARDT: He doesn't say. He doesn't say.

MATTHEWS: Does he literally hear you? I mean, what does he say? Does he nod? Does he go, forget about it?

GEPHARDT: He literally did not answer my questions. When he finally decided to go to the U.N., he did come back to one of the meetings. We had a meeting about every week.

MATTHEWS: Right.

GEPHARDT: On these issues, and he did come back and he said, well, I've done what you, you know, asked be done, and so now, you know, I need your help in getting the U.N. to be with us. You know one of the things I say? Is if you had been meeting with him every week since 9/11, you'd be running for president.

MATTHEWS: OK. Thank you. We're going to get back and talk to Congressman Dick Gephardt about what—about the whole issue of being a Washington politician and why Howard Dean is saying those terrible things about Washington politicians. Back with more.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEPHARDT: This president is the worst president of the five that I have served with. He must be replaced. He's doing a terrible job. He's wrecking the country. He's a miserable failure!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEPHARDT: We need to end the PR games. We need to end the deception, we need to end the dishonesty.

Like father like son. Four years, and he's done.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: You know, miserable failure.

GEPHARDT: That's what I said.

MATTHEWS: You stand by that?

GEPHARDT: Nobody planned that line, incidentally. Nobody even said those words to me before the debate, and I was trying to describe my frustration with his policies, both domestic and foreign. It just came out of me. I don't know where it came from, but...

MATTHEWS: But...

GEPHARDT: It just—it came out of me.

MATTHEWS: ... let me ask you this, not to put words in your mouth, but you do see his appeal, don't you? Why so many people like him?

GEPHARDT: Absolutely.

MATTHEWS: Why does at least half the country really trust this guy if he is a miserable failure?

GEPHARDT: I think...

MATTHEWS: I mean, that's like a zero on a scale of one to 10. And yet, most people say I like the way he handled terrorism. I'm not sure about Iraq. The jobs thing is a serious problem, but you said miserable failure, total, utter failure, loser. Get out of here. Is that what you mean?

GEPHARDT: Chris, I think he is a nice guy.

MATTHEWS: Are you?

GEPHARDT: Of course. I think people like him. I think they take well to him. You know, the old story is they'd like to go have a beer with him. I wouldn't, but they say that people would. But he is nice. He comes across as—and he is a nice guy.

MATTHEWS: Is he out of touch?

GEPHARDT: I mean, I've served with him...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: His father got the rout that when he went to a Safeway, he didn't know what all the machinery is about, when they scan and stuff like that, and he went and bought sweat socks or something. Is this guy, this president, our president—are you saying he is out of touch because you say he doesn't even listen to leadership people in the Congress?

GEPHARDT: He's smart. First of all, don't make the mistake of thinking he is not intelligent. He is very intelligent. He doesn't have a lot of experience.

MATTHEWS: Does he have curiosity about issues?

GEPHARDT: He doesn't have curiosity.

MATTHEWS: Does he read the newspapers? Does he keep up with this stuff?

GEPHARDT: I don't know.

MATTHEWS: There are reports is he doesn't read the papers. He relies on briefing papers.

GEPHARDT: I don't even think a president needs to have all that. I think...

MATTHEWS: What, newspapers?

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Rabbits need newspapers.

GEPHARDT: Everybody—everybody gets their news off TV, from you, from HARDBALL, but—but people have to listen. If you are president, you want to get really experienced, smart people around you. And you want to listen to a broad range of opinions.

MATTHEWS: Does he have a balanced team of advisers?

GEPHARDT: I don't think so. I think he listens to Rumsfeld and Cheney and not enough to Powell. Powell is...

(APPLAUSE)

MATTHEWS: Could you consider Powell for secretary of state? Would you consider him for secretary of state? Would he be on your long list to make secretary of state if you got in?

GEPHARDT: Well, there is some Democrats I would look at first.

MATTHEWS: But would he be on your long list?

GEPHARDT: He would be on anybody's list. I like Colin Powell. I think he is smart.

MATTHEWS: Do you trust his judgment?

GEPHARDT: I trust his judgment.

MATTHEWS: Why doesn't the president?

GEPHARDT: I don't know. I think...

MATTHEWS: Do you think the president ignores him like he does you? I'm serious.

GEPHARDT: Probably a little more me than him, but I think he doesn't listen to people like Colin Powell. I think he is somehow believes that Dick Cheney and Don Rumsfeld have all the answers, that they have great experience, and they do, and they should be listened to. I'm not saying he shouldn't listen to them, but he doesn't balance it, and if he doesn't have the knowledge and information to balance all these countervailing opinions, then he can't make the right choice.

MATTHEWS: He is basically a manager. He did well in business with running a baseball team. He has got a lot of smarts. Nobody questions that.

Do you think he relies too much on his management skill and not enough on probing the policy questions that he trusts his deputies to handle?

GEPHARDT: He almost has an anti-intellectualism. Do you know what I mean?

MATTHEWS: Yes.

GEPHARDT: He doesn't want to appear to be highly, you know, well-read and...

MATTHEWS: Speculative.

GEPHARDT: He kind of thinks that's geeky or something.

MATTHEWS: Yes. You don't? you think the president should be something of a wonk, something of a student of the issues?

GEPHARDT: I think you need to know as much as you can know. Look, being in the House for 27 years now, every day is like taking a bunch of final exams. You never know enough. You never listen enough to enough people.

MATTHEWS: Like Richard (UNINTELLIGIBLE) just pass add way. Like a lot of guys who went to school in our generation, he was the first guy that made politics sort of intellectual. And one thing he said about presidents is one of the qualities they have is they have to have the newspaper bug. They have to love to pick up any—there's a picture in "Time" this week of the president, President Kennedy, just grabbing a newspaper. He walks past a newspaper, he picks it up.

Do you think this president has that gut instinct for knowledge?

GEPHARDT: I don't think so. He I think he is interested in a lot of things, but he doesn't delve into information that he really ought to be delving into.

MATTHEWS: And that's a critical deficit on this his part?

GEPHARDT: I think so.

MATTHEWS: We are going to come right back and we'll talk more about Dick Gephardt. Congressman Gephardt, a front run are for the nomination.

ANNOUNCER: In the 2000 presidential election, George W. Bush won Dick Gephardt's home state of Missouri by nearly 80,000 votes. We're coming back with more from Congressman Dick Gephardt on "Hardball's" battle for the White House.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) with Dick Gephardt, who is one of the frontrunners in the election right now, let's go to the questioner up top.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You spoke earlier about root causes. Do you think that the Democratic party has paid adequate attention to the needs of America's poor both rural and urban?

GEPHARDT: No, I don't. I don't think either party has. I don't think we as Americans have. I think we've got to earn the vote of minorities and the poor in this country every day. We can never assume the vote of anybody. So we need to return to programs and ideas that will lift up the poor. The proudest achievement of my time as majority leader with Bill Clinton was we passed the 1993 economic program which lifted up the poor and got wage increases, and the best thing we did was to raise the minimum wage, and when I'm president, we're going to raise it big time. We're going to have a living wage in this country.

MATTHEWS: What are you going to raise it to?

How much an hour minimum wage?

GEPHARDT: I'm going to have to negotiate with the Congress.

MATTHEWS: What's it about $5.10 now.

GEPHARDT: It's six bucks.

MATTHEWS: How high are you going to make it?

GEPHARDT: It needs to be $8, $9.

MATTHEWS: You are going to push a $9 minimum wage?

GEPHARDT: You cannot even support one person on $6 now.

MATTHEWS: The Chamber of Commerce is waiting for you. Go ahead, next.

GEPHARDT: Listen, let me just tell you, that's a good point. You know what I say to people who are Republicans? If you want to live like a Republican you'd better vote for the Democrats. The minimum wage will help them.

MATTHEWS: We are going come back and talk more about the personal story of Dick Gephardt when we come back. It's a fascinating story. We're coming back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL's "Battle for the White House." This half-hour, Dick Gephardt in the race for president and his life in politics. But first the latest news right now.

(NEWSBREAK)

MATTHEWS: Professor Graham Allison of the Kennedy School was assistant secretary of defense in the Clinton administration. Professor?

GRAHAM ALLISON, KENNEDY SCHOOL OF GOVERNMENT: My question concerns terrorism. You mentioned earlier the possibility of a Ryder truck with a nuclear weapon. So how would a Gephardt administration's approach to preventing a nuclear 9/11 differ from the Bush administration? And specifically, what two or three actions would President Gephardt take that President Bush is not taking?

GEPHARDT: Well, first I would be much more aggressive than I think he's been in trying to deal with the nuclear materials that are out in the world. First, Russia. We've done some programs there. We need to do more. We need to be more aggressive with that. We need to deal with the problem in Pakistan and India. That's another great worry. Nonproliferation has to be the main focus of the president of the United States and the American government. I would do that.

Secondly, I would have a long-term energy program that would reduce our dependence on Saudi oil and Middle Eastern oil with renewables—hydrogen, wind, and solar. Power 21 (ph) is the name of my program. And I would confront with a world alliance the Saudis and try to get them to change their behavior.

Finally, we've got to go to a lot of places in the world—Bosnia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Liberia, and we've got to have the ability to help people enjoy the four freedoms, to be able to bring nation-building, if that's the word we want to use, to a lot of different places. And so we need the U.N. to form a capacity of people—experienced people and young people, kind of a jazzed-up Peace Corps, if you will, to go to these places and help people, teach them how to fish, don't give them fish. Teach them how to do democracy, capitalism, whatever, the four freedoms involved. That's how you avoid terrorism.

ALLISON: Thank you.

MATTHEWS: Let me ask you, you mentioned before we started, before we went to the break about your desire for a much higher minimum wage. Do you think the unions in this country have too much power, labor unions?

GEPHARDT: I think labor unions are—have been in the decline for the last 15 or 20 years, and I think the level playing field that used to be there is no longer there. It's very hard to win an election to be in the labor union, it's very hard to get a contract even after employees decide they want to have a labor union. So we need to change some of the laws so we have a level playing field.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Let's talk about some of the laws. You think a person should be forced—I'm going to ask the audience here right after I'm done with asking you the question—you think a person who goes to work for a factory or a company in any regard should have to join the union?

GEPHARDT: If the vote of the other workers is to have a union, then everybody ought to comply with the democratic decision.

MATTHEWS: You mean, you should be forced to join a union?

GEPHARDT: What you're talking about is right to work.

MATTHEWS: Yes. Should we get rid of right-to-work laws?

GEPHARDT: And that's the way they've broken unions and (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

MATTHEWS: Would you like to get rid of the right-to-work laws in all the states that allow a person to go to work in a company without joining a union? Would you like to get rid of those laws?

GEPHARDT: I'm against right to work. It's right to work for less.

MATTHEWS: So you—do you believe you should have to join a union to get a job?

GEPHARDT: If the people in that workplace have decided to have a union...

MATTHEWS: But not you.

GEPHARDT: Well, you're part of a group, you're part of a team.

MATTHEWS: You mean if I go to work—if I want to go to work for U.S. Steel and I don't want to join the union, you say I have to?

GEPHARDT: If the group has decided to have a union...

MATTHEWS: The group is there before you.

GEPHARDT: That's OK. If you want to be on that team, if you want that job, you've got to be in the union. What's wrong with that? Let me tell you something, Chris...

MATTHEWS: Well, I want to ask everybody in this room. Does everybody in this room believe that you should have to join a union to get a job?

(APPLAUSE)

MATTHEWS: How many think—how many believe it should be up to each worker if he goes or she goes to get a job somewhere, whether they join the union or not? It should be individual freedom. How many believe in that?

(APPLAUSE)

MATTHEWS: So you're comfortable advocating repeal of 14-B?

GEPHARDT: The reason...

MATTHEWS: No, seriously. This is a big question. I'm serious. 14-B of the right-to-work provision of the Taft-Hartley Act of '47. Would you like to get rid of it?

GEPHARDT: If we can do it, fine. If not, it's a state by state...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Would you like to do it as president? Would you sign a repeal?

GEPHARDT: It would be good.

MATTHEWS: Would you sign it?

GEPHARDT: You should be able—you should be able to elect to have a union, and if the group decides to have a union, you ought to have to join in.

MATTHEWS: In other words, you would pass—I want to ask you just the question, Congressman...

GEPHARDT: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) question.

MATTHEWS: Would you sign a repeal—would you sign a repeal of the Taft-Hartley Act that required to get rid of right-to-work laws all over the south so that people would be forced to join a union? Would you support—would you sign to repeal the Taft-Hartley Act?

GEPHARDT: But you're not stating it correctly.

MATTHEWS: Well, state it your way.

GEPHARDT: If people have decided to join a union, then to get a job in that workplace you should have to join the union. Let me tell you, the reason...

MATTHEWS: Under current U.S. law—just explain to everybody here—a lot of states are allowed to opt for right-to-work so that you don't have to join a union. You say as president of the United States, you would sign legislation, get rid of—to repeal 14-B to make it possible for close shops?

GEPHARDT: If I could pass it in the Congress, I'd do that.

MATTHEWS: You'd sign it? You'd sign it?

GEPHARDT: I'd sign it. Now, let me go further. The reason we have a middle class in this country is because of unions, because we have allowed unions and we've allowed people to decide to be in unions in a fair election, and what's happened in the past years is we've stacked the deck against unions' ability to win elections and to be able to get contracts as unions.

My dad was a teamster. It was the best job he ever had. He lost it after 10 years and he had to do other things in which he did not make as much money. And he used to tell me, we have food on the table because I'm able to get fair compensation for my hard work, because I'm in a collective bargaining unit called...

MATTHEWS: But how can you carry states like Texas and Georgia, right-to-work states, with a position that you want to get rid of right-to-work laws? Those people like those laws.

GEPHARDT: Chris, as it stands now, they have got to do it state by state. There's a whole organization in the country called Right to Work.

MATTHEWS: I know.

GEPHARDT: And they go out to states to try to pass right-to-work laws.

MATTHEWS: But you're going in the other direction.

GEPHARDT: Well, we've been losing lately. Oklahoma went to right to work.

MATTHEWS: But if you win, forget right to work in the south?

GEPHARDT: New Hampshire—New Hampshire, which is close to here, refused right to work. And I'm proud that New Hampshire did that.

MATTHEWS: How are you going to carry the red parts of the states with that philosophy? How are you going to carry Texas, South Carolina? How are you going to carry those right to work states with a position...

GEPHARDT: Chris...

MATTHEWS: ... you want to get rid of right to work laws and allow unions to force people to join the unions?

GEPHARDT: We have got to appeal to workers in this country. There are a lot of people that want the chance to join a union.

MATTHEWS: Majority? In (ph) the states?

GEPHARDT: We have got to have a president that stands for workers again.

MATTHEWS: Well, I think we're going to find out what the majority of (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

GEPHARDT: We've had a president ...

MATTHEWS: Because you've just joined this issue.

GEPHARDT: We've had a president who has been there for big business. We need a president who will be there for workers. Wouldn't that be...

(APPLAUSE)

MATTHEWS: Let me ask you about—to lighten up—to lighten the subject, you're a family guy, and everybody thinks you're the greatest as a father, and all the good things, as a husband, and you're honest as hell. You don't have any money. You once told me you could afford education by moving further and further from Washington, because it's cheaper to live and to pay your tuition bills...

GEPHARDT: That's why I'm going to win West Virginia.

MATTHEWS: Because you live there practically, right. Let me ask you about your daughter, Chrissy. How did you come to grips with her orientation?

GEPHARDT: Well, when she first told us this, she said she was separating from a young man that we cared a lot about, and you never want to see your children in trouble and difficulty. And so just the separation, the giving up on a marriage that we'd hoped was working is first the problem you face. And then choosing a lifestyle which is looked down upon by a lot of people. And you never want your children to be hurt. You worry about your kids no matter what's happening to them. And so we were concerned.

But I love my kids more than anything in the world. And I love my wife. And I will protect my family no matter what happens. And I told her, we're going to stand behind you. It doesn't matter what you do. You have unconditional love from us, and you always will.

MATTHEWS: You know, it's interesting because...

(APPLAUSE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My name is Martha Robelard (ph), and my question is actually a takeoff of this. Considering that you do have an openly gay daughter who you are supportive of, why are you still not advocating gay marriages?

GEPHARDT: Well, Chrissy talks to me about this a lot, so she makes her views well known. I just think that we have a big agenda in front of us with regard to gays and lesbians, and we need to make progress on that agenda. We can't get a hate crimes legislation up in the House to even try to pass it. We can't get the anti-discrimination bill up with regards to gays and lesbians in the House to even have a vote on it. And if states will do civil unions, which is about as much as I think would happen at this point, we need to conform federal law so that we give the same civil rights to gays and lesbians as we give to others.

So those are the things I think we can get done and that's what I hope we will do in the years ahead. That's what I'll try to do as president.

MATTHEWS: Next question?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello, Representative Gephardt.

You've been campaigning as the jobs candidate. And in America our welfare form is said that if you want help from the government you need to get a job. Why have you not advocated the government ensuring employment when most Americans seem to think that that would be a good thing?

GEPHARDT: Well, I think we have a system of economics in our country called capitalism and I don't ...

(LAUGHTER)

GEPHARDT: I just—I don't think you can get where you want to go with that kind of an approach. This just isn't going to work.

But let me tell you what I do think we need to do. I think we need to say to Americans we're going to put aside the Bush tax cut and we're going to use that money to see to it that everybody in this country, whether you work or not, has health insurance that can never be taken away from you. (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

(APPLAUSE)

MATTHEWS: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) We're going to come back and talk to Congressman dick Gephardt about important stuff, favorite movie, favorite book, that sort of thing. More personal stuff with Dick Gephardt.

ANNOUNCER: IN 1988, Congressman Dick Gephardt won the Iowa caucuses with 31 percent of the vote, hedging out Illinois Senator Paul Simon and the eventual Democratic nominee, Mike Dukakis.

We're coming back with more from Congressman Gephardt on HARDBALL's "Battle for the White House."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: Coming up, Congressman Dick Gephardt's favorite movie, his favorite book, his favorite philosopher. Plus more questions from our audience here at Harvard.

We're coming back on HARDBALL's "Battle for the White House."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: We're right back with Dick Gephardt.

Can you do a Massachusetts accent?

GEPHARDT: No, I don't think so.

MATTHEWS: OK. Let me ask you about your favorite movie then. What is it?

GEPHARDT: "Lawrence Of Arabia."

MATTHEWS: Oh!

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

GEPHARDT: I love history. I love history movies.

MATTHEWS: It's so great.

GEPHARDT: "Apollo 13," "Dances With Wolves."

MATTHEWS: "Lawrence of Arabia" is my favorite.

Let me ask you this—I think I'm with Gephardt—OK. Let's go with favorite philosopher, if you have one. If you don't—Edwards didn't have one. And the president said the Lord, which passed muster with just about everybody.

So if you got a favorite philosopher, do you want to be sophisticated or just regular tonight?

GEPHARDT: Well, I didn't do too well on the philosophy course i took at Northwestern, but I'd say clearly Martin Luther King.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Woo!

GEPHARDT: And I say it—in every speech ...

(APPLAUSE)

MATTHEWS: That wouldn't be pandering, would it?

GEPHARDT: No, no.

MATTHEWS: OK.

GEPHARDT: In every speech I talk about when he said, "I can't be what I ought to be until you can be what you ought to be." And that's what I believe. We're all tied together.

MATTHEWS: All right. I like that.

OK. Let me ask you about favorite book, non-fiction?

GEPHARDT: Nonfiction?

MATTHEWS: Well, like, you know, history, you know, biography, that kind of thing.

GEPHARDT: David McCullough, "Truman."

(APPLAUSE)

MATTHEWS: Missouri.

Somebody threw in there my question card here favorite musician. I think this was for Sharpton last week.

GEPHARDT: This was easy.

MATTHEWS: We know who it's going to be. It's going to be this guy. The guy who's roadie ....

GEPHARDT: First my brother, Don (ph), who is a professional musician. Plays the clarinet...

MATTHEWS: Can we get some hard questions here?

You're up next. I am tired of these softballs. They embarrass me. Go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Representative Gephardt, you were strongly pro-life early in your career, but have flipped your position on the issue. You missed the vote on the partial birth abortion ban recently in the House. How would you have voted if you had shown up?

GEPHARDT: I have voted for and would vote for a ban on late-term abortions, but only if it includes—only if it includes an exception for the health of the mother. It has to have that exception in it.

MATTHEWS: You never voted for PBA without that, did you? Partial birth without that exception?

GEPHARDT: No, I voted for it but it—I always...

MATTHEWS: But you voted for it without that exception?

GEPHARDT: I always voted for that amendment.

MATTHEWS: But in final passage did you go for PBA without it?

GEPHARDT: I have in the past, but I would not...

MATTHEWS: Why have you changed?

GEPHARDT: As president, I would not vote—I would not sign the bill without that exception.

MATTHEWS: Why did you vote for a bill that didn't have the exception for the mother's health?

(CROSSTALK)

GEPHARDT: ...I wanted to show consistency on the basic idea. But I would not as president sign a bill that did not have the exception in it.

MATTHEWS: Next?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Congressman, what is your position on the Patriot Act? And if elected would you do anything to change the provisions of the bill?

GEPHARDT: The first thing I'd do in my first five seconds as president is I would get rid of John Ashcroft as attorney general (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

MATTHEWS: Would you consider Larry Tribe for AG?

GEPHARDT: I'd consider a lot of good people.

MATTHEWS: But Larry Tribe, would he be on your list?

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Would Larry Tribe be on your list?

GEPHARDT: He'd be on my list.

MATTHEWS: OK. Next.

GEPHARDT: Let me just...

MATTHEWS: I'm trying to hook you into being a liberal here. I'm trying to make it clear.

GEPHARDT: Let me give you Patriot Act. I voted for the Patriot Act, but I never expected the attorney general would interpret it in the way that he's done it and apply it in the way he's done it. So I am for changing it. There are some good bills out there to do it. We need to do that. More Congressional oversight would be good.

MATTHEWS: Next?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Representative Matthews, you missed the vote to fund the troops in Iraq. Do you think it's a little hypocritical to talk about your support of the troops when you don't even show up to give them the resources they need in the field?

GEPHARDT: I was...

MATTHEWS: Was that a close vote? Was it a close vote? Was his vote necessary?

GEPHARDT: I was there. I was there.

You know, let's go back here. I was there for the vote. And I voted for the bill and I voted for it because I think it was the only responsible thing to do. We got to support our kids out there who have bullets flying around them and we have to send the right message to the people in Iraq, both our enemies and our friends, that we're going to see this through. That's the only response we...

MATTHEWS: Who told you he didn't vote for it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I thought that's how it was.

GEPHARDT: I wasn't there for the conference report but the vote, the vital vote, was the one when it first came up in the House and I was there for that.

MATTHEWS: Next?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Representative Gephardt, the growth in the economy in the past quarter was the strongest in 20 years and many people are attributing that to the tax cut. Doesn't it make it more difficult to push a 2.5 billion trillion dollar tax increase?

GEPHARDT: Well, it's not—it's not a tax increase because I'm—yes, I'm laying aside the Bush tax cuts but I'm going to see to it that everybody has health insurance that can't be taken away from them. And my plan basically as a federal subsidy go to every person in the country equal the 60 percent of whatever plan you choose. And that will put into the average family between $2,000 and $3,000 a year. The Bush tax cuts only give you $500 to $700 a year. I'm better for average families than George Bush.

MATTHEWS: What about the consumer if you put taxes on imported goods? If you go To Nordstrom's or any store like that, Wal-Marts, most of the stuff, a lot of it, is imported. If you raise taxes on imports, which is a tariff, isn't that going to raise the cost of living for most people?

GEPHARDT: I'm not for tariffs. I am for getting standards up in the other countries.

MATTHEWS: But if they don't you put tariffs on them?

GEPHARDT: But they will do it. That's the way you get them to do it. What do they want...

MATTHEWS: But You use the weapon of tariffs, which is taxing imports, as a method of public policy it's going to raise the cost on consumers.

GEPHARDT: You've never going to get change in these countries unless you put real pressure on them. What do they want? They access to you. You're a good consumer.

MATTHEWS: Next question. We'll be back with more questions. It's getting exciting here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: Lets go. Next question...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi. Congressman, I'm wondering what you think about Zell Miller's new book and comments on "Meet the President" Sunday, that there's not a single Democratic candidate that he can support?

GEPHARDT: I'm sorry to hear that. I was hoping for his vote but I don't agree with him, obviously. I'm going to beat George Bush. I am going to beat George Bush in November of 2004.

MATTHEWS: Go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Representative Gephardt, many people who once supported you now do not back you citing your failure to win back a Democratic majority in the House. How do you plan to get rid of this image as a weak party leader?

MATTHEWS: Who do you support, by the way, in the campaign?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm not going to say that right now on national television.

MATTHEWS: Why not, I'm just curious.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Gephardt at the moment. At the moment.

MATTHEWS: What are you a ringer?

Go ahead, I'm sorry.

GEPHARDT: I like this young lady.

MATTHEWS: She says how are you going to get back support you've lost and she's for you.

GEPHARDT: I won seats in three elections. There was only one election we didn't pick up seats. We almost won the House three times. I'm proud of that record. I am also proud of what we did as Democrats. Remember the Clinton administration, 22 million new jobs in seven years, took a $5 trillion deficit, turned it into a $5 trillion surplus. I'm proud of that. I'm proud of what I've accomplished.

MATTHEWS: Was Clinton a good president?

GEPHARDT: He was a good president.

MATTHEWS: Next.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Congressman, why are you the only presidential candidate not attending tomorrows, youth orientated "Rock the Vote" forum and do you think young people's votes matter in your campaign?

GEPHARDT: They matter a lot. that's why I'm here tonight. And I've got to be in Iowa. I had a preset meeting that I've got to go to. I got to win Iowa. So, I'm going to be in Iowa tomorrow night. But I talk to young people everywhere I am. I have got lots of young people on my campaign and maybe I ought to say this now. When I was in college Jack Kennedy was president. And I was moved when he said to young people like me, get involved in politics. Give part of your life to politics. So I just want to say to all of you here, get involved in public life. Give back to your country. Don't just take from it. And get involved in this campaign. If it's not for me, get behind somebody and get out there and work and make this country a better place. You can do this. Do it.

MATTHEWS: Quickly.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you embarrassed that the AFL-CIO chose not to endorse your campaign?

GEPHARDT: Not at all. I've been endorsed by 20 international unions. I'm proud of that. I come from a family where my dad was a union member and I share the views that we need to fight for working families. I fought for working families for 27 years. And what excites me the most is when I go out in the country—I don't have just the leadership, I have the rank and file members that are excite body this election. I can beat George Bush in those industrial states where unions are strong. That's what I'm going to do.

MATTHEWS: Thank you very much, Dick Gephardt, for being here at the "Battle for the White House" at Harvard.

Coming up right now the "COUNTDOWN" With Keith Olbermann.